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I too was expecting more from Y2 and The Division, but oh well. It looks like the shelf life of our beloved game is limited and clearly The Division 2 is looming on the horizon. Thanks for the comment! Very informative and thanks for the post. Our packaging here in the U. Our packaging says nothing of "gambling" or "promotes gambling. If I were allowed to give you thumbs up, it would already be done!

You took some serious time with your comments and it is much appreciated. If the vanity offerings are quality, I am sure a lot of players will pay the cost to snatch them up. But this "you can't see what you may receive" strategy to get people to continually spend more and more money on what they could win has no place in our game. Thank you for the post! Since when has gambling been defined by the result must yield a taxable asset?

Gambling is 1 play games of chance for money; bet - 2 bet a sum of money on a game of chance - 3 take risky action in the hope of a desired result. Nowhere in there does it say that your prize must be taxable. And secondly, if Massive wants to introduce gambling into the game now, the must update their ratings for every country and that simply cannot happen.

Minimum age to gamble in the U. I took to the internet and got this definition for gambling: 1 play games of chance for money; bet - 2 bet a sum of money on a game of chance - 3 take risky action in the hope of a desired result. This RNGambling system clearly looks to be 2 and 3 and only gets disqualified from 1 by the "money" portion.

We need to see the loot percentage chart for this caches, we need a refund policy for non-desired items, and I want the refund policy for duplicates to be on a 1 to 1 basis. This is just a generalization and I could keep going on and on. An RNGambling system with no disclosure, that can be manipulated on the backend based on what players on currently chasing is a completely unregulated system.

Wow pretty interesting thread Buzz. First, I've posted a few times on your you tube channel and I'm pretty sure you've always replied back, pretty cool. For me the gta v shark card model works simply because no matter what, I know what I'm getting. Also, nothing can be purchased with shark cards that cannot be earned by playing the game.

As far as the gambling aspect I would say it clearly is. Rockstar stated as much regarding the "Casino" that never came to fruition in that there were too many issues with gambling games and micro transactions. This seems like the same thing to me. As far as ubi goes, if they wanna make or milk money from the game that's their perogative. I will say this, it seems like I remember the last Halo that came out using a similar RNG type system with micro transactions. I have not seen anything published on that rate of return for duplicates.

Where did you get that info? Thanks for the recognition and I always make a huge effort to respond to any comment on my channel! However, from what you say, any item you could get through the card system could also be found in the game. That is not the case with this RNGambling system! I have a lot of concerns about this. Currently, on the pts. I created multiple characters and opened the 3 Encrypted Caches for each character.

The drop rate for duplicates was quite high. It could be that i have bought a lot of premium vendor items. Also I was getting a lot of regualr vanity items. I was told that those items were placeholder items by a player. I am assuming those slots are for facemasks. I could be wrong here, but I reported it as bug. You should not be receiving regular vanity like hats, pant,s etc. The fact i got two of them in one encrypted cache. That is not okay. How many key fragments does it take to create a key to open an Encrypted Cache?

What is the drop rate for these key fragments in the live game? Will we see Hamish or Matt openning Encrypted Caches in their streams to hype it up? We should be unable to trade in unwanted vanity items from these caches for key fragments. There are some hideous weapon skins. Also better camera angels viewing premium items would be nice.

The current camera angle while viewing items such as weapon skins suck. The lighting does not depict how the weapon skin actually looks. On PTS week 2 when I got a duplicate the corner of the item portrait had number, which for me was I know I got 3 free keys and got to open four thanks to key fragments of duplicates, a reddit post said Yanuck had said it would likely be set to 3.

Money earned in gambling is taxable income. Win a car in a raffle, you have to pay taxes on it. Winning a blender in a church raffle may not be taxable, but the item itself is taxable sales tax when item was bought. It looks to be only the 3rd option, as I explained before. When you buy a lockbox you are not betting a sum of money, as you will get something in return.

There is no actual bet. But hey, RNGambling sounds clever, right? Refund policy? That's funny right there. Perhaps you should not buy these lockboxes? The more I think about this, the more I see it as a mystery purchase, and not gambling. There is nothing to win, you are buying something, therefore it's not gambling, I guess.

But it is a bit of a dirty way to try and sell more crap, with a nice wrapper around it. I've read a lot of this thread it's very verbose , but would like to share my 2 cents as someone on the PTS, and has purchased every pack the ones sold initially, not though the premium vendor till date While I don't like the idea of loot boxes at all, an important point would be how easy is to receive cypher key fragments and subsequently constructing a cypher key without purchasing premium credits???

As far as I know, the drop rates while playing the game is miniscule at best. The only other way to receive cypher keys is from duplicate items when opening an Encrypted cache. I play this game a lot, and if i receive a decent amount of cypher key fragments whilst playing the game, I'd have no issue whatsoever with lootboxes.

I have opened between to caches on the PTS, by creating and deleting characters, for the purpose of seeing what vanity items are there. There are plenty, and I can appreciate the effort that Massive have taken to add variety to the character appearances. Quick point here, duplicate items are NOT appreciated!!! Having opened that many caches, towards the end, you can often open 3 encrypted caches and not receive a single item that you don't already have.

This is only for your information. I've made a suggestion for different types of encrypted caches as well, one for clothing and one for skins at the very least. To conclude, I do not like the idea of spending real money on a chance of receiving an item. I'm perfectly fine with earning in game credits and purchasing the same, since I play at my leisure. I'm perfectly fine with spending real money when given the option of choosing what I buy.

I actually find this to be a very thoughtful thread. I never really have a lot of money to blow on pointless things so I'm mindful about every purchase I make. That said, any person who has a lot of money should feel free to blow it on whatever they please. The problem comes when you're spending real money for a chance of something that can have such a low drop rate that no one has acquired it yet. I agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be changes to this system before it's finalized.

Otherwise you'll wind up with situations similar to what happened with Destiny and the "Festival of the Lost" which came to be known as the Festival of the Cost by the playerbase. Being able to pursue specific items in particular boxes would be good enough for me, as I like to know that I do actually have a chance at getting what I want. I firmly believe that the odds for things like this should consider the people who will only be attempting to get them through the game's limited methods.

So having a 1 in drop rate when you can only try once a week would be beyond dream crushing. It needs to feel possible, and if you have an item from the box, that item needs to never appear in the box again. No duplicates eliminates a huge part of every loot box based issue in games. Nothing feels quite as bad as spending real money for something you already have.

Buzz Your thoughts and comments on this topic are very succinct and appreciated. As a father I do not allow my children that are under 17 to play this game, and would hope that other parents would do the same. This game is being sold throughout the world and every country has a different set of guidelines when it comes to gambling. Unfortunately, there is no way to retroactively rerate the game, and ban anyone under 21 from playing it.

If the game moves forward with this game mechanic, then I think the Attorney General in my State and the US Attorney General might like to know about it. My suggestion is let people buy or win the item of their choice, like emotes then it is not a game of "chance". Actually Hammer You are confusing the legal definition with the actual definition and ignore jurisprudence that is moving away from these pre-digital age definitions.

While an activity may not be covered by the law concerning gambling YET this in itself does not really exclude it to actually be gambling Law is pretty slow in evolving but it sure isn't static. For a long time digital casino's for example did not fall under the legal definition of gambling in my country since their price was a digital token and not actual cash or material goods. Those tokens could then via another process be traded for real cash.

They set up this system to circumvent the existing laws not having been created in an age where this was thought possible Regardless whether it conforms with the law or not It is certainly commendable that you sourced your opinion by citing the Nevada gaming commission. But outside of Nevada the Nevada gaming commission holds preciously little legal weight.

Laws vary from state to state The definition of gambling the Nevada gaming commission uses is not the legal definition my country uses They have talked about everything else ahead of Update 1. Like i said, I was a day one Flag Waiver for this game, but then the Development Team Introduced use to whats in stored for Year 2 of The Division and I kind of made up my mind right then and there that I was going to start playing Destiny 2 more upon its release.

The RNG is already so bad in this game, and then on top of it we cant see whats inside of the "Encrypted Caches" before purchase, I'll definitely be passing on supporting this. Personally speaking I think this is a very under-handed tactic, to fleece money from an already depleted Division Community.

I really hope you guys learn from this, and all the other major mistakes you have made with this game, if your honestly thinking about making The Division 2. I've already paid the game, why the hell i should spend more on vanity? You are comparing apples to oranges. The tokens were purchased with RL money. You were at risk of losing your tokens, that is, get nothing whatsoever. The token mechanic was explicitly set up that way to circumvent gambling laws.

The law caught up rather quickly. What moral and ethical implications are you talking about? If you want to go that route, there are people who spend countless hours playing this game, to the detriment of their health, work, social life I referred a number of sources, not just the NGC, not for the specific laws, but simply to show the general definition of actual gambling. Which law in your country makes lockboxes gambling? So let me get this straight The same company that can't fix their own game wants to rip us off at the same time.

More brownie points lost. If you pay for something and there is a chance you won't get what you want Lets 'strip back' the gambling, legalities, morals and similar practices arguments and just simply look at what it is Like a cheap circumcision You can buy a car, and there is a chance you will not get what you wanted a lemon.

Obviously not. The only parallel you have here is the uncertainty. You don't know your car is going to turn into a lemon, just like you don't know Sweet Mother of God will place in the second race. However, if your car is a lemon, you have a recourse: dealer warranty, sell the car for parts, etc.

When you buy a key to a lockbox, you know you will get something out of that lockbox. Whether what's inside the box is of use to you or not, that's another story. And remember, I am not arguing strictly from a "what does gambling mean" vacuum and the nuances of its various meanings.

I am arguing against the OP's stated meaning of gambling: The entire issue with this new monetization concept is that it is gambling! Can a CM disclose more information regarding encrypted caches? Why am I getting regular vanity items from opening encrypted caches? I'm getting basic appearance items that can be bought at appearance vendor at the boo or found in the game.

The system is flawed if we are getting regular vanity items such hats, pants shirts, jackets, etc.. Instead of unique premium vanity items from a premium vendor. Rainbow 6 Siege just introduced Alpha Packs. It's the same concept with the encrypted caches. Except you can not buy Alpha Packs with real money.

They are obtained by in-game currency or after winning a match in mutilplayer. If encrypted caches can be obtain without spending real currency, I have no issue with it. I'd offer you the same advice I offered the other poster. I am arguing against the OP's stated meaning of gambling: If I pay for a car without knowing what kind I get,that is gambling. That analogy is stupid. If I pay for a car without knowing what kind I get,that is gambling.

You were the one who posted the following: If you pay for something and there is a chance you won't get what you want Yannick Does this take into account the fact that you can get duplicates and these are returned to you at only 2 shards per duplicate? Buzz, after listening to your video and reading this post I want to thank you for being the paladin for this cause. You so right it calling this gambling, and I truly feel this has no place in our game. I like the idea in principle that grinding key fragments would give you access to new vanity gear, which would make it a rare piece to have, but the second you add the chance to pay for keys makes it ludicrous IMHO.

You were the one who posted the following If I buy a specific car,I get that car and I get free service to that car that keeps it in the condition I bought it and if that free service does not keep it that way,the legal system forces the manufacturer to make it right. Lemon Law. You're being beyond ridiculous. Stop acting like a child. You're simply wrong. Own it.

It's been proven several times you are just wrong. Be a grown up, accept it and move along. If you want to argue that you yourself do not mind the caches and gambling in the game in general then thats fine. We wont agree but you have your opinion and you are free to have it. But being a prize wally trying to make out that this isnt gambling even the sodding people running the game have said its gambling is frankly quite pathetic.

Does this take into account the fact that you can get duplicates and these are returned to you at only 2 shards per duplicate? That is the purpose of this system, to make you think it will get you what you want while tricking you into spending 9 to 10 times what it should cost you! This wrapper is designed to force you to blatantly overspend for vanity items. Now, as usual, you are adding more parameters to your original statement, in an attempt in vain I may add to make it sound like you are right But facts are facts, and as I quoted before, you posted the following: If you pay for something and there is a chance you won't get what you want That is YOUR statement.

And within the parameters of that statement, the car analogy is applicable Perhaps you should think about the replies you post? I am not trying to act like anything. And no one has proven I am "just wrong". Again, the original post made this claim: The entire issue with this new monetization concept is that it is gambling!

One more time, I am not arguing about the various usages of the word "gambling". I am arguing against the OP's premise. And if you believe that statement to be factually correct, then, yes, I am smarter than you, or anyone who believes it so. And for the record, I don't care either way about lockboxes. I'm yet to buy one in any game I have played that offers them. A consolation prize does not make it not gambling. Not a meal. If you buy a cache wanting one thing and get another,you gambled.

Anyone stupid enough to think all players will buy caches hoping for something random I already used the only appropriate word. There will be tons of players spending a lot of money trying to get that one thing. That one thing holds value to them. They are gambling. Value is subjective. Well, you're not being forced, but you're being tricked into. I agree that it's a misleading sales tactic. About the duplicate item issue you mentioned in your video; If I hypothetically, already own all three items I unlocked in my cache, do I get 9 key fragments back, making me lose 1 fragment?

Yannick Here's my suggestion. Going back to the trading card game. Back in the day when we played Magic The Gathering every pack would give you 1 Rare, 3 Uncommons, and 10 or 11 Commons. Make the encrypted caches give you 1 Rare, 1 Uncommon, 1 Common or a chance at 2 Uncommons. Value is subjective of course. There were many crappy rares in MtG.

But of course there were also some really good Uncommon cards as well. I've seen some really cool weapon skins that I wanted. My biggest concern with all of this is getting duplicates. Especially if more than 1. If Massive absolutely cannot avoid the duplicate situation, then I propose if we get duplicate Rares, give me back 7 Cipher key fragments. If I get a duplicate Uncommon give me back 5 key fragments, and if I get a duplicate Common, give me back 3 key fragments.

We always traded cards between friends. But here, there's nothing to redeem for duplicate vanity items. At least nothing we know of for sure. Anyway, that's my idea. At the very least the Encrypted cache should give you something of unique value. Yes, if my research and sources are correct, each duplicate item is valued at 3 key fragments.

So, in theory, if all 3 items in the Encrypted Cache at duplicates, you will get 9 total fragments back. The tricky part of it is that portion where you need to purchase an entirely new cache to get that 4th duplicate item. Where the diminished returns gets even worse is when you have almost all the items and are continually needing to purchase more and more caches for the key fragments, but never getting back the value you paid for them.

If the keys only required 9 key fragments to fully assemble it would be much more fair for the purchaser, but from what I've seen, it is not. And yet again, you are just arguing over the usage of the word "gambling". If the weather forecast says it is going to rain tomorrow, and I go ahead and plan an outdoor party hoping that is not going to rain, I can say I am gambling that tomorrow is not going to rain, but that is not just like going to Vegas to gamble.

That's the basis for its outrage and fatalistic outlook. I am simply arguing against that. As to anyone believing players will buy caches hoping for something random, I have no idea why would you make such comment. Has anyone made such comment on this thread? If someone did, I missed it. Perhaps a quote from that post will help? How are you being tricked into anything?

Gambling weather be for profit or not is still gambling. I have lost family members to this addiction it's not funny. Gambling is also considered a disease. The stems from childhood or a bad upbringing which makes the person feel successful first of all time and makes them feel like they need to feel successful again.

I had an uncle who grew up in my family is native country. His childhood was pretty much similar to mines. It started with dice games at the age of It was a smart person good with numbers good with business. He left behind one son and a ton of nieces and nephews. My father knew him best has the person that Prides himself on winning. My father and him never seem to agree on anything when I was younger. There was always fighting about money spent and it was always about the same argument gambling.

I love my uncle with all my heart. He was always the one that tell me so don't be like him never take chances and always do better. Sometimes I wish you would listen to his own advice but it's too late now. He's gone and there's nothing I could do about it. RNGambling is a horrible idea. Regardless if there's profit or not.

It is the gamemakers responsibility to ensure that their product weather whether it be virtual we're digital do not harm contaminate or corrupt young minds to such an extent that it could be life-altering. We as consumers have a right to informed the ,gamemakers, content makers, producers investors and Developers to make morel decisions that could affect livelihood regardless of the intent.

There is other ways to make profit in the gaming industry. Adult casinos should be the only place where gambling is allowed and controlled. There are a lot of truck stops and areas where gambling does not permit profit but they are machines there for entertainment purposes that does not mean kids can go in and play the slot machines because it's only there for entertainment purposes.

I'm going to get the community some food for thought. Most of the development for this game is done overseas and they do not have the same regulations like they do in the states. But gambling is still gambling Weatherby profit or not and it is no place inside a video game a year later.

Thank you for reading Sagat Ps. I'm sorry but I know you Developers worked hard to bring this product out over the last few months but you know this is morally wrong and I pray you do the right thing. First off let me just say that I have been playing Division on Xbox since it went live, I don't say this to imply that I have some sort of special insight or that I have anymore right to comment on this than any other player, but just to show how much time and love I've invested into this game.

Personally, I don't like these micro transactions at the best of times but when they introduce the gambling element it shows that they're really just out to make a quick buck. The ONLY point in these 'cash for cache' is to create something that makes you feel like you just might, just maybe might win something And, yes, that's the basis of all gambling but that's the point Buzz and myself and others are trying to make.

It's gambling and as such it has no place in a game that is played worldwide by people of all ages and financial means. Young and old, rich and poor It's easy to for people to say to just not buy them but as Lt. Buzz rightly states addictions aren't that easy to control and I speak from personal experience.

Make these unique vanity items weekly as you suggested or as a reward for completing the hardest modes. Don't make the same mistake that so many other games have and show the respect and care that your fan base deserves please. Thx for this but i have highly doubts that our opinion about the rngambling is gonna change anything. They will add it the way it is on PTS because they are greedy Can't help but agree with most of what has been said already. I dislike micro transactions and have never partaken of them in any game that I've played.

I've never spent real life money apart from originally purchasing games and buying paid-for updates. The Division is no different. What concerns me is the speed at which the micro transactions are increasing in this game. The micro transactions haven't been out that long, and now we have this development. How long before Pay to Win hits, despite the CM denials? Some people are weak of will and will throw money real money at this until they get what they want.

For God sake Massive, show them what they are going to get. And then there's the "flashy new animation" that you get for opening an encrypted cache. Why does this specific cache get an animation? Why don't all other cahes get one? I wonder. Personally, it would just make me even more determined though I've never been tempted to not part with any real cash for these premium credits.

Money, money, money I will never spend a coin for nothing. You can hang bells and whistles around it, you can paint it the colors of the rainbow, it's still gambling and you know very well that a large portion of your player database if not the largest are teens no matter what the rating is.

I am all for the company that made the game that i have been playing since the first day of the release making money even though i know that none of that money will go towards upgrading your servers or expanding the game but not this way. You can very well sell your vanity items like you sell your emotes. The cypher key parts should only be obtained by playing game activities and not be sold for real money. It is ok for game vanity items gestures and etc to be on sale for real money, but also there should be a way to earn them through game activities.

Let me put this another way ok. When buying The Division, did you gamble when buying the game because you didn't know what it was going to be like? Similar principle when buying these caches right, you don't know what you will get but you will get something at least.

Gambling is either win or lose, you get something or nothing. The moral and ethical problems with gambling won't stop a company like Ubisoft especially not Ubisoft from implementing it. It does not matter how strong the arguments are, it's about the buck in your pocket and the current out-of-control-capitalism will ignore all reasonable arguments.

Our economy sells one's grandma without any hesitation. You pay for what you want and they have released the entire drop table for their game. Either let me pay for what i want or let me farm for it, don't take me for a fool in a game of chance. I honestly think you guys are approaching this the wrong way. Please reconsider this game design and implement a more transparent system that will keep your players engaged and with that investing money into the game.

Must agree sith buzz on this one Also id like to add that i feel ripped off by division. I bought game to my pc and xbox one with seasonpass so thats a fair amount of money just to c that i must spend some more to get feeling that i have something unique.. The unwritten rules are: Never criticize Ubisoft, their products or legal strategies unless it doesn't harm their profit interests.

Not following the rules can cause bans for RNGselected reasons spam, toxicity, et cetera. That's why this thread, the OP and all comments were deleted in the first place. Shortly after they realized that they banned one of their influencers and blamed the spam detection algorithm. Can you take their word for it? For the longevity of this game I don't wanna see any type gambling mechanics introduced now or when Division 2 roles out It really sends a bad overall message to your userbase on what your trying to do Agree with Buzz 1 million percent on all points!

Firstly Im a hardcore division player and i seriouly think that this system will have negative consiquences towards the division. And thats a pity. To be honest i dont really know a lot about the rngamblimg thats gonna be added in the division,but i know some knowledge about gambling.

I strongly stand against it. Also after watching your video i became very sad of what the division is gonna become because untill this date i never bothered about all the faluts the game had because thats how much i love this game,but now i think the division is about to make its largerst mistake thats gonna change the entire player based community as well as its own reputation. I really hope the community would remove it.

I've also been playing this game since it's release in and invested thousands of hours into this game. I don't normally come to these forums to post but I do like to lurk and read the Reddit Posts, YouTube videos etc. However I felt I had some important points to raise so thought I'd dive in head first. Please take my comments as personal opinions and they're not a dig at the developers, community management etc.

But my personal beliefs and feelings. My opinion on this whole RNGambling thing is it is exactly that. You buy a key and are at the mercy of the games RNG system. There is no sure way of knowing what you'll get and it's very common to get an item you already have and this has been documented on many online forums, twitter, youtube videos etc. I find the whole "Other games do it" leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I guess it's ok to go and punch someone in the face because others do it too? Well that doesn't make it any more right to do or ethical to do etc etc. It's not even a defence in my opinion. While the statement is accurate it's absolutely NO reason to proceed down the same line too! I personally would invest some of my cash into the Premium Vendor but have not done so yet for the following reasons: We still have no concrete official answer for how long The Division servers are contracted to run for us to play the game.

One needs an Internet Connection to play this game. So why would anyone invest We don't know if there will be releases of Free or Paid content in Years 3, 4 and 5 We know The Division 2 is coming, but will this be a new game completely? Is TD2 going to be like a content drop to the existing game, or a completely new game with seperate season pass etc If the Community Management Team provided some answers to these basic and perfectly reasonable questions rather than corporate jargon or completely ignoring the questions then more people would invest in this game and an RNG system would not be necessary.

Now lets do some financial maths here. Assuming you have a developer paid an annual salary of 25, GBP that leaves enough funds for 10, Developers and 3 MIllion still spare at the current time of writing Ubisoft and Massive have every right to turn a profit in their businesses. But if the game implements an RNGambling system because it's short of money and wants to keep alive.

I would question how on earth you blew ,, because you probably did not spend it on 10, Developers over a 12 month period My calculations aren't based on any factual information other than the amount that was claimed to be turned over within Week 1 of the release of the game. I was just putting the numbers into perspective to show how that money could be spent Which leads me to conclude that I don't think the title being short of money is the problem here.

I don't for a moment suggest that Ubisoft and Massive are not entitled to profit from their product. But there are ethical and moral standpoints to consider. I personally would be very sad if the game was shut down because of a Class Action Lawsuit somewhere that ruled that such activity in game was illegal because it did not have a gambling license and allowed minors to gamble underage. I respect that such an event is extreme and probably unlikely.

But we've seen in recent months and years how things particularly in US and UK Politics for example have defied the experts and gone in very unexpected ways. So I would certainly not rule it out. Now with that said I want to expand on a suggestion and my experience with the RNG system.

Instead of purchasing keys to unlock the caches. You buy the in-game currency and then spend it in the game at the players choosing. I would certainly consider the odd purchase of phoenix credits here and there to experiment with rolling weapon talents or buying blueprints if I couldn't grind for them in a specific week but really wanted that Custom M44 blueprint This allows the player to make a choice on how they spend their phoenix credits.

You can earn credits on the Daily Challenge Mode Mission so within a week you could have phoenix credits for 20 minutes of gameplay a day, if that Again I really don't condone the gambling feature. But allowing players to buy in-game currency would be a much better player choice than buying keys to chance win Vanity Items from a cache. It's almost like a scratch card. You buy and if you don't win then you've got nothing really to show for it.

This leads me onto my last point with the RNG. I've been playing since launch date. So what incentive do I have to try Encrypted Caches and think my luck would be any better? Because it simply won't I am notoriously unlucky in real life and in game. My final parting comment is with regards to the servers and the current running of the game. I receive state support due to a lifetime disability and this game does sometimes give me reason to get up in the morning and battle the daily pain I suffer and to take that pain out on some cleaner who is doing a really bad job at cleaning the Toilets I rely so heavily on I play other games too and one of them I host 2x small 20 slot servers from my own pocket at around If I can afford 1 dedicated server to run an Arma 3 and Left 4 Dead 2 server to both run without serious lag issues and desync.

Then a corporate entity with a 1 week turnover of ,, can afford significantly better kit and wouldn't need an RNG system to stay alive and could rely solely on players buying vanity items of their choosing I appreciate I've rambled on a bit here and I hope I've made sense and put some of these things in perspective. I'm always happy to answer questions on my posts so if anyone has a question or wants me to explain my thought process then I will happily do so : TL;DR RNGambling is a seriously bad idea for this game that's already suffering low player counts as it is.

Maybe allow people to buy ingame currency and allow them to buy the caches if they wish as a sort of compromise to the situation We need clarification on how long the servers are contracted to stay online and if we can take our vanity items to TD2. I understand Ubisoft's position as they are a company and need a source of revenue but this has no place in our game. I can call it OUR GAME because without us, the loyal players of this community salt free or otherwise , there would not be a game at all.

What's more concerning to me is that there is a premium currency in the game at all. Encrypted caches are bad. Microtransactions in full-price games are bad. Deleting threads and perma-banning users for descenting opinions is also bad. I posted this on Buzz's YouTube post and I believe the official forums need to see this as well; personally don't spend extra cash on this game I did get the season pass and I am a "Day One" player, I feel Ubisoft has moved so far to the "right" that it has no idea what it is anymore.

Premium Items should be either earned small quantities of Premium Credits being earnt in-game or let us earn "Keys" and make them these "Encrypted Items" purchasable via the same vendor with "previews" available. I do have a completionist mentality and with these items being linked to "achievements" this is going to make me want to "Catch 'em all" so to speak. This could be the first time since the day I installed the game that I decide to uninstall Uplay and never play this game again.

Just to add my point which I put on the OP's youtube comment section I agree have been playing since day 1 if closed beta only clocked hrs as i have other games and IRL stuff taking up my time. I do agree with your view on this issue personally I think monetizing needs to be scrapped entirely but this is unlikely to happen companies like Ubisoft and Rockstar have taken a system intended for f2p games to recoup dev costs and are abusing it. Unfortunately most of the playerbase are too blinded with their desire to play "keeping up with the joneses" to realize they are being exploited and will continue to make purchases.

As a result Massive will continue on doing this, history has shown Massive only ever listens when the player count drops off a cliff and even then its usually the bare minimum effort required laced with hollow platitudes.

I suspect we'll see more blatent monetizing across Ubisoft as a whole if things like this are even thought of never mind permitted to fly. I posted this on Buzz's YouTube post and I believe the official forums need to see this as well; Thank you for being a voice of reason, as this practice just feels unethical. I am trying me best to make this work for us not only now, but for when The Division 2 launches.

Hey Everyone, I've never really been near the Division forums as I'm generally not one for forums at all, but LtBuzzlitebeers incredibly well constructed and discussion promoting post stuck a real chord with myself and some of my colleagues at Upper Echelon Gaming, I'm a core member of UEG and we decided to add our voice to this issue.

The debate seems to be be still focused on whether it is actually gambling but that issue is null and void, by every definition it is gambling and it manages to subvert and restrictions or oversight simply because its a video game. A video game that is played by a large proportion of people under the legal age to gamble in their respective countries.

Were not asking for no micro transactions in the game, I'm more than happy to see them in game as long as there is no RNG value assigned to them. Damn i got 2 things i didn't want and a duplicate, and i can only spend encrypted fragments on other random caches Thanks :D.

As I've said before, I don't approve of this cache system myself, but I like to play a little devils advocate here. I think legal speaking it's never gambling, since we use virtual cash that holds no legal value. The moment we buy premium credits, the deal has been done, and all legal purchase rights we have are gone. Whatever transaction we do with that virtual cash after we obtain it is out of reach for most consumer laws. Again, I don't approve of not knowing what we buy, but technically we aren't buying anything, we are trading.

For us, premium credits hold value, for the law it's just 1's and 0's. RNG with real money is actually illegal in some Asian countries and my tin foil hat has me wondering if it had anything to do with not being able to certify the 1. I have no idea but I do wonder. Yes, that was my poiny. We are not gambling with real money, therefore it's not gambling technically. Yes, very. But that's how it's avoiding gambling laws I think.

It is real money though. No edit function on the mobile site, so to add: The credits are the product you bought, not the cashes. As far as I know, buying virtual currency is not forbidden by gambling laws. What you do with the virtual currency is not yet protected by gambling or consumer laws, but are all stated under the company's ToS. I've signed the petition to try and stop Ubisoft from adding the encrypted caches to our game.

Again, as long as every single item available in these caches will eventually be available to purchase individually, then I don't see a problem with having these blind caches for someone looking to land the items early. I get that everyone would prefer a huge menu of every item and make it all available always, but the vendor restock is there to keep you coming back to check on what's there.

I do agree that the system in place in relation to "Encrypted Caches" is poorly implementation on the PTS, primarily in relation to the fact that we can use "Premium Credits and the low drop rate of "Key Fragments". However, this is not "gambling", based on the definition that Buzz gives in his YouTube Video.

This is because the "prize" element, which relates to gambling is not present. A prize, in relation to gambling, MUST be "money or money's worth". Any item which we receive from a cache has no monetary value - they cannot be sold for "real world" or "in game" currency.

Therefore, the items which we receive the caches cannot be consider a "prize", thus the system in place cannot be, legally, regarded as gambling. The low drop rate of "Key Fragments" has the potential to incentivise players to purchase said caches with "premium credits". If they don't get the item they want, there is the risk that players will purchase more and more credits until get the item they want.

Personally I do agree with the alternatives ways in which Buzz has suggested. That is just my 2 cents on the matter! Didn't this thread get removed? Glad you agree its a "sensible topic". How valuable an item is, is solely down to the purchaser.

A player always "wins" if they know full well what their going to receive before making a purchase. I agree. The following is a quote from Buzz about how this system works and why. Whilst it may be somewhat exaggerated its just another slap in the face for your clients and you know it. Whilst similar practices have indeed existed in the past and still do, it doesn't make it right. As vvhorus perfectly wrote on page 3 and I agree entirely I don't really need to add anything to that.

Yannick How about you make the full cache transparent? Otherwise its as Buzz said. Your just ripping us off big time. A far better way to make money with a skeleton crew is to make more game modes like a PvE-DZ and Battle Royale as examples with what seems a gigantic demand if you read the forums. You did it with Last Stand and Survival. Its existing content that with minimal effort can be made into an expansion. Appreciate any feedback and although we don't agree on the semantics of the "gambling" aspect, we do agree this could promote players overspending for vanity items through the implementation of this type of system.

How about you make the full cache transparent? All extremely well crafted responses and thank you kindly for contributing to this thread! Sorry, what happened? I have spent way too much time and money and made too many friends to see this go through. Haven't been here in a while and feel like I'm missing something Just wondering why there is a 16 page thread about this Just don't Btw, petitions are always a good thing and are always the best way to achieve something Thanks :D Simple and to the point!

Thank you so much for putting pen to paper and writing this superb public petition! And a huge thanks to the entire U. Was really nice and interesting to get information from them. This is a really nice move that shows that they take into account the player base concerns.

If you buy something with real money, you MUST receive a reward from it. Dupes from real money caches are NOT acceptable. However dupes are fine from "dropped key" caches. One day. Remember : "free-to-play" lootboxes types are the wost kind of thing possible and imaginable in gaming. EA did that, a lot of other compagnies did that. I fight against that in each game i play. This is not something that can be allowed. Compagnies need money, okay. Players have it.

But if they want this money, they have to deliver content that deserves it. Its always how this starts they push inch by inch to see what they can get away with and before you realize what they are really doing its too late and already in the game. The only way we stop this is by stamping it out before it becomes a thing. But alas too large a proportion of whats left of the playerbase will purchase these packs anyway making Massive think they did a a good move which will only encourage them to push it further still, it very well might "kill the game" inside of a year but by that point Massive won't care because they'll be "laughing all the way to the bank".

However, currently this is just pay to play Barbie. There is no advantage. I would rather have Ubisoft sell in-game currency than keys for those slot machine caches. Pay 2 Win in The Division? Have you seen the crap that you can buy from vendors? There is nothing that vendors currently sell that could give an edge over other players I agree its utter bunk what's in the store mostly but that's not my point, my point is that allowing this will only encourage Massive to move towards a future P2W situation first it starts with cosmetic items then it progresses to game changing items.

More questions than answers I agree and most of what we did get wasn't really answers to vague psuedo-answers and false equivalency to the concern around this feature as shown by Yannick trying to use that trading card answer, they are probably hoping it'll all die down in a few days and they can sweep it under the rug and carry on as planned. Great video I full agree with your opinion. Keep up the good content. Buzz, even though we aren't totally in agreement here, I really dig your push for clarity.

Top marks bro. I don't mind buy skins, emotes and such since I really enjoy using them. But the gambling cache thing has no place here and really feels like a slap in the face to the remaining fanbase of The Division. I still really enjoy the game and sat quietly when poor decisions were made in regards to the game, but I will not stay silent for this.

Also, I understand that it may not seem like the amount of people complaining compared to the total player base isn't that huge, but you have to remember there is always a huge non-vocal majority in any group.

Please, Massive. If you care at all about your game and it's fan base. Do the right thing. Giving a chance of getting somehting rare, stimulating one to stay longer, until yone is playing it all the time. It is legal though Great post LtBuzzLitebeer! Thank you PatrickJr. I really wish there was no need for this post in the first place. Thank you kindly and that your comment is greatly appreciated.

The entire player base will not agree with me, point by point, but the message at the heart of my topic does agree with most. I cant believe you were banned again. It's good to see it was sorted out again.

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